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Index > Engine/Drivetrain > Thread: Rotary ignition systems
Thread: Rotary ignition systems [' This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 (4) 5 ']
Uncle-Jim


Revvin Up
Posts: 64
posted August 13, 2002 09:39 AM

Hey Jeff,
Those locations you've included are quite good! I read thru them all, and I see that they have good diagrams of several uses of the GM chips. This is good reading for anyone who wants to try this.
I have an HEI in my parts box somewhere, I may try to breadboard this circuit and post my results.
I have a bunch of J108's (?) that were in the '80 Rx7's. I've used these to replace '109's although they don't really fit (too long). However, I think I'll build up a DLIDFIS with these J108's and give that a try.

____________
Uncle Jim
72 Rx-2 Show Car; '77 REPU (250K & goin' strong) 2 - '76 Cosmo's

       
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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted August 13, 2002 11:37 PM

I've got one and it's a J105. I've always assumed it was from an '80 because it was the long style, but it could have come from a GLC or something. I'm glad you found those pages useful. I certainly did :)

       
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quickquest88


Newbie
Posts: 2
posted August 27, 2002 02:31 PM
Edited By: quickquest88 on 27 Aug 2002 14:47

hi, ya'll. i've been reading the board for a couple of days cause it loks like sat i am going to be gettin a repu. i was at a junkyard looking for bodies to drop an lt1 that i have sittin around in, and came across a repu. not exactly sure what year. bodies in good shape, and it runs. only 600 bucks. i'm gonna jump on 'dat.

anyway, thanks jeff20b for the info. this is definetly something i am gonna do as soon as i can afford it. cause i'm just getting into the rotary, i don't have any parts laying around. the cheapest i found a j109 for new was 117 and used 60 bucks. and a dizzy for like 150 or so. so i would really like to having to buy 3 j109s. 330 is a lot to me.

so......

i read about the hei control modules. how about this:

http://www.vintageperformance.com/retrorockets/PerTronixHEI.htm

they make an upgrade hei system. modules are more expensive than stockers, but:

"The Flame-Thrower module develops 67% more energy than an OEM module and when teamed up
with the Flame-Thrower high performance coil
operates misfire free to a minimum of 7500 RPM.
(For HEI distributors with 4 pin modules only.) "

i know this says to use their coil, but i think a blaster 2 or 3 would work the same. also they have a "race" version of the module:

"The specially designed 7.2 amp module and 50,000 volt coil produce 42% more energy in the coil with a 46% faster spark breakdown time allowing 48% more peak current to reach the spark plugs between 6000 and 8500 RPM compared to the PerTronix street/strip HEI. "

53 bucks apiece, but better(?) than the hundred dollar j109, and brand new for less than a used j109.

since i'm so new to this, anyone want to tell me why these won't work? it does say in the page that their dizzy is good to 7500 rpm. but is that limit set by the dizzy itself, or the contol module?

also, while i'm here. what headers do you use? i saw on mazdatrix, they hav dual outlet and single. there is a diffenrent single outlet for the repu, but they don't mention a diff model for the duals. will the duals work ok? what is the benefit of the dual outlet over the single?

ok, enough for now. i almost want to buy the modules now, but i think i would be smart to get the vehivle in my name first!!

nick

p.s. almost forgot. could this be done to make the trailing plugs direct fire too?

       
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Klaus43


Rotorhead
Posts: 1259
posted August 27, 2002 06:03 PM

Hey Nick, welcome!

If the bucks are tight, you may yet be able to find a decent deal on a used 1st gen. rx7 electronic ign. dizzy & coils--make sure to get the one w./ the igniters mounted on the diz--these can at times still be found for around $50 .
Get the Racing Beat header for the REPU... 2 into 1 if you're never gonna port it, seperate collector for the 'long primary' setup for peak power from a ported motor... or a dual-exhaust setup. Way to go, rescue that REPU from the yard!

       
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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted August 27, 2002 11:50 PM

Uh, so were you going to be dumping the LT1 in it?

       
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quickquest88


Newbie
Posts: 2
posted August 28, 2002 07:24 AM

arrrggghhh!!!! absolutely NOT! i would never defile a rotary vehicle with a boinger.

besides, if i was drop the lt1 into a truck, i would pick something easier to do. like an s10.

but, no. i am gonna fix up the repu. i am going to try to keep it looking stock. sleeper. it already has aluminum wheels. i might drop it, and it will definetly get a new motor. i'll just have to see how much money i can save b4 the motor blows. no doubt, a new motor is high dollar. i might end up doing as much as possible myself. i saw mazdatrix sells plates to do porting with. i might go and buy a t2 or something. i think that's a LITTLE cheaper than buying new, plus i get fi and turbo. but after i buy comp and wiring harness, maybe the same price.

i dunno. sigh. i keep buying these project cars. the orignal reason i bought the lt1 was to swap into my 88 conquest (therefore my siggy). so i sent a grand of to a guy in va for a swap kit. oil pan, oil pump, headers, engine crossmember. he gave me the oil pan and pump. he still has the rest. this was like 5 months ago, so we called the cops and filed "theft by appropriation" charges on him. ( just a little tip, if you sell something over state lines and don't deliver, that's a federal offense). so now i have no car, and a 2000 dollar motor rotting on my porch. and a car with no motor.

now i'm buying another fixxer.

i need to win the lottery.


nick

       
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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted September 04, 2002 11:51 PM
Edited By: Jeff20B on 4 Sep 2002 23:56

Yes, you do. Good luck with the REPU and everything else!

I installed a DLIDFIS kit in my Cosmo yesterday. It works perfectly and I was finally able to time it correctly as well. If any of you have an REPU with AC, the compressor sits on a cast iron bracket on the plug side of the engine (not the intake/exhaust side). I'm not sure if any REPUs ever had power steering, but if they did, they'd probably use the same bracket from the same Mazda parts bin to keep prices low.

Anyway, this bracket was not designed with the '81-'85 electronic dizzies in mind. The Leading ignitor is in the way and the dizzy cannot be rotated far enough to set the timing correctly. I think the '80 style would have worked, but for better future-proofing, I chose to go with the '81-'85 type. This was back in '98. I decided to relocate the ignitor near the coils. It didn't really work out very well because I couldn't get the filed-down quick disconnects to fit inside the pickup connector very well. I guess it's good that it didn't work because the heat sink I had planned on using wouldn't have been big enough anyway. I still had the right idea though.

Then in '99 I decided to use my Dremel to grind and grind and grind and it still wasn't enough. It would have taken me several more hours than it already did, so I just put the ignitor back on the dizzy and left it alone while working on other projects. It would run alright, but not as well as it would if the timing could be set correctly.

Then in '00 I hooked up SLIDIFS and it worked even better thanks to the dual Leading sparks (or, wasted sparks for you piston people reading this). The ignitor was still on the dizzy, and the timing was still off, but it ran better.

Now in '02 just yesterday I finally hooked up DLIDIFS and it's running great! I also solved the quick disconnects into the connector problem as well. Before yesterday it sounded like I had rotor knock or something. It must have been bad timing and possibly the weak spark of SLIDFIS. Well, whatever it was, DLIDFIS cured it.

You can see the little ignitor plate I cut and drilled here: http://www.geocities.com/cd23c/ignition.html (scroll down to the Cosmo section). Yes, it's now finished. Gotta update my webpage when I upload my latest pics.

       
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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted April 21, 2003 10:02 PM

My DLIDFIS install hit 1000 miles today and has been running perfectly ever since I installed a 12V relay (easily found at Radio Shack) about 500 miles ago. It used to have a tendency to blip at idle due to low voltage through the ignition key switch wires. Even after a five minute drive, they'd be really hot. Not good. The relay gets its 'signal' from the original wires that used to feed the points etc. The relay switches a 10AWG wire from the starter solenoid (obviously because we don't have our batteries under the hood, which, in my opinion, is a lot better than having a big old lead weight up front).

I'd also like to mention that GM HEI ignitors are in my future because J-109s are scarce and expensive, not to mention that 90%+ of them are from '81 to '85. Sure they're good to keep using for Trailing because they bolt right on to the dizzy housing, but they're more difficult to install on an aluminum plate because they require you to hollow out a section so the pickup wires can fit through. Not the case with GM HEI ignitors. Just drill two holes and that's it. I'll have to get a couple from my local auto parts store and try 'em out next time I'm doing an ignition upgrade. I'll also edit my DLIDFIS article in the meantime to include this info. I think someone else is going to do an article on how to hook up DLIDFIS in a 1st gen RX-7 as well. Better him/them than me because I don't actually have a 7 to mod... yet. :)
____________
'74 REPU
'76 Cosmo
'77 MG Midget 13B
'81 RX-7

       
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Tom93R1


Redlining
Posts: 457
posted April 22, 2003 08:01 AM

You just now hit 1000 miles? My DLIDFIS install hit 1000 within a couple weeks. SevenStock 5 alone I put 1000 miles on that trip. I never installed a relay off the ignition switch and I never experienced the switch wires heating up, or is it that I just never noticed it? Are you feeling the heat right at the switch?
____________
http://azrotaryrockets.com

'74 lawn-green
4-port 13b
Weber 48DCO
Racing Beat Header
Magnaflow resonator/amplifier
really loud!

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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted April 22, 2003 10:50 PM

I don't drive the REPU much at all. That's why it took so long.

The key switch wires themselves were hot. All have butt connectors on them. The butt connectors were even hotter. It looks like the original pig-tail was replaced by the previous owner. When I got the truck, it still had points so I guess he never needed anything better than the spliced wires.
____________
'74 REPU
'76 Cosmo
'77 MG Midget 13B
'81 RX-7

       
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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted September 10, 2003 10:28 PM

I've been installing some GM HEI ignitors in a rotary powered B2000. Follow my progress in this thread here. http://www.mazdarepu.com/board/viewthread.php3?FID=1&TID=653
____________
'74 REPU
'76 Cosmo
'77 MG Midget 13B
'81 RX-7

       
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Uncle-Jim


Revvin Up
Posts: 64
posted October 27, 2003 10:20 AM

Starting my Dlidfis

A couple of questions. 1. Has anyone here ever used the 1980 system with the remote mounted ignitors? I've got the whole thing including the Dist. and extra ignitors. It look like it might be handy to modifiy and set up for use in the REPU. I've heard those '80 system had some reliabilty problems. (?)
2. Would one of those dual tower coils, like part of the multi-coil distributorless system work for for the leading plugs?
Thanks,
Jim
____________
Uncle Jim
72 Rx-2 Show Car; '77 REPU (250K & goin' strong) 2 - '76 Cosmo's

       
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Tom93R1


Redlining
Posts: 457
posted October 27, 2003 10:30 AM

Isnt the '80 ignition system a points system? I would think it is worth the upgrade to an electronic system.
____________
http://azrotaryrockets.com

'74 lawn-green
4-port 13b
Weber 48DCO
Racing Beat Header
Magnaflow resonator/amplifier
really loud!

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Klaus43


Rotorhead
Posts: 1259
posted October 27, 2003 11:00 AM

That remote-mount igniter system

...was the one found to be prone to cross-triggering, etc. ... To be avoided! Don't know about your question #2...

       
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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted October 27, 2003 11:40 AM
Edited By: Jeff20B on 27 Oct 2003 11:48

If you're wanting to use the '80 style system, just pull the J-105 ignitors off the stupid box and throw it away. Then mount the ignitors on an aluminum plate.

The stupid box is what causes the cross-triggering if I'm not mistaken. It's also responsible for the semi-firing trailing those cars had (with the tach on the leading coil). This was so the thermal reactor's internal fire (pilot light lol) could stay lit. Get rid of the box! Without it, the engine will have full time trailing like the '81 and later. HP will improve since the extra fuel that would normally be used to feed the thermal reactor will now get burned in the combustion chambers. Heh, instead of one spark per rotor face, you'll now get three. :)

Speaking of thermal reactors, my Cosmo still has one, and the air pump (they must stay together). Since I've hooked up DLIDFIS, the exhaust no longer smells bad. I bet it would pass an emissions test even without the thermal reactor functioning normally.

For question #2, if you're going to use one of those dual output coils, you'll need to keep the ballast resistor that's buried down inside the little box that's bolted to the coil. Personally, I wouldn't use one of these coils because the output is shared. What happens when one plug gets a little more fouled than the other? The less fouled one will continue to spark while the fouled one just sits there. Unless of course the dual output coil has two seperate secondaries. But even if it did, the primary is still shared, and more power would still probably break down and go into the less restrictive circuit. Again, I personally wouldn't even bother with that stuff, but that's just me. Go for it if you want to. Good luck.
____________
'74 REPU
'76 Cosmo
'77 MG Midget 13B
'81 RX-7

       
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kick


Hauling
Posts: 149
posted November 01, 2003 06:11 PM
Edited By: kick on 1 Nov 2003 18:14

I really don't under stand all of this right now.
But I do have somethingís to ask, even though they might be point less, and might not get any replay back about it.

What would it take to run some MSD 6AL or even some Crane Cams HI-6 digital boxes? I was reading about people doing something like this setup on their g3 Rx7 in the single turbo part of the Rx7club forum. There were some people also saying go with the Crane Cams HI-6 digital box over the MSD 6AL box. I like the idea that the MSD 6AL box has a rev control. Here is the link if anyone wants to have a look - http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=233521&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Their were some people saying run two boxes for the leading, then run two coils or boxes for the Trailing. Would that be something like direct fire ignition system? I really donít understand what that means too.

I bet the information is in here some were. I just don't really understand this whole deal, let along if what I read answers my questions.

Any help would be very help full.

Also what is the better setup for my repu?
____________
1972 Rx2 - no enigne or trans
1974 Repu - runs and drives
1976 Rx4 - no engine or trans (klaus42 old 4)
1977 Repu - Parts

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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted November 01, 2003 10:33 PM
Edited By: Jeff20B on 1 Nov 2003 22:34

DLIDFIS. It's simple. No seriously, it really is. I've had an MSD 6AL on my REPU, and it wasn't pretty. That is to say DLIDFIS is uh prettier, or something. It's all in this lengthy thread.

For you, I'll answer some questions (because I can see you're asking the right kinds of questions). It is my understanding that the Crane HI-6 box is newer and actually has digital stuff inside. I think it also has an adjustable rev limiter and cylinder count (so it knows if it's on a V8 or whatever). The MSD is analogue and has little loops of wire to cut for 6 or 8 cylinders (do not cut for 4 cyl or rotary). The 6AL has little resistors, that possesive people like to call 'pills' or somesuch (lol), that can be swapped to adjust the rev limiter.

I believe both ignition boxes have CDI and multiple sparks. The MSD's multi-sparks are supposed to last for 20ļ of 'crankshaft' rotation on each cylinder. What happens when the RPM gets higher than idle? There is less time to fire-off all those sparks within its window of opportunity, and as a result, lessens to one spark per cylinder per rotation. What's more, since a V8 has twice as many cylinders as a 4 banger, the MSD needs to work twice as hard at any given RPM to accomplish its multi-spark discharge at anything above idle. Well guess what? The cylinder count circuit is only for the rev limiter; not the 20ļ multispark discharge circuit. The result is... I'll let you ponder that.

To get back to your questions, the reason why 3rd gen '93+ RX-7s need like three or four MSDs is because they have no distributor (heh, not even a CAS) and each plug needs its own MSD box. Too costly and unnecessary for me.

I'm not sure what your setup is like, so if you could post it in a new thread (or one of your old ones with info about your setup already there), I'll be better able to answer specifics there. This thread is about rotary ignition systems in general, but more specifically DLIDFIS for the REPU. Thanks.
____________
'74 REPU
'76 Cosmo
'77 MG Midget 13B
'81 RX-7

       
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Klaus43


Rotorhead
Posts: 1259
posted November 02, 2003 07:41 AM

If I'm not mistaken...

...Kick's REPU has a 4-port in it still... (?), and the DLIDFIS setup would be as good for him as it would for me... I certainly need to get around to doing this, not to mention *everything* else...
Direct fire: Any of us can win a bet with a V-8 hotrodder that our REPU's can race him after pulling out our distributor... just run your leading coil wire to leading plug, front rotor, and the trailing coil wire to the leading plug, rear rotor. Now that's direct! And, we win the bet...

       
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Jeff20B


Moderator
Posts: 661
posted November 02, 2003 10:23 AM
Edited By: Jeff20B on 2 Nov 2003 10:25

That's "distributor cap". Yep, I impressed a guy who's been into rotaries for 20+ years by pulling off the cap and firing it up. He liked watching the rotor spin. He's part of the OLD old school and would rather use a '73 12A in a small engine bay due to the top mounted starter, than make room for a '74 or later bottom mounted starter. Infact, he's tried the L to front rotor, T to rear rotor before. Heh, the poor rear rotor ends up being retarded. :)

So anyway kick, klaus is going to take the plunge. How 'bout yourself? Nice red REPU by the way. Cool R100 too.
____________
'74 REPU
'76 Cosmo
'77 MG Midget 13B
'81 RX-7

       
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kick


Hauling
Posts: 149
posted November 02, 2003 12:58 PM

I think ill give it a try, and take the plunge. heh
Ill need to read over your site to understand the whole idea, and what all I will need. As for the repu and r100. I donít have a r100; I do have a blue Rx2, and a red repu. Going out today to see about those other repuís I know about.

Thank god for this forum, cause if I run in to trob when I do this I can always go here.


Thanks for the input guys. :)

____________
1972 Rx2 - no enigne or trans
1974 Repu - runs and drives
1976 Rx4 - no engine or trans (klaus42 old 4)
1977 Repu - Parts

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